This piece will be in several sections and includes some of my explorations this past week and what I’ve been learning. Basically, I’m going to link information and commentary for those who deeply care about remaining in the arena of sound, biblical doctrine and avoiding associations and “discipleship/conversionship” by modern-day heretics and those in the Church bent on promoting a variety of deconstructionist ideas (of both a soteriological and political nature).
I want to start by recommending the following talk Authenticity and the WOKE Crisis of the Real, by James Lindsay. And then, I will go on to make comments on parts of his talk as well as comments on the selected, spotlighted religious figures in my title (yes, Foucault should be considered a religious figure–any human that teaches others concerning morality, identity and worldview is essentially a “religious” figure even if they have no god).
Lindsay’s focus in the above-mentioned talk frames postmodernism as a crisis of authenticity.
He states, “Authenticity is WOKE kryptonite.” Then he goes on to say, “The WOKE don’t have any power over people who are authentic; WOKE-ism taps into people’s feelings of inauthenticity.”
I found his talk very engaging, especially the latter part where he speaks human-to-human on the topic of authenticity.
We Christians need to start doing our homework, rather than remain on the spiritually/intellectually lazy side. And those who teach others in the Church in a sanctioned capacity as biblical shepherds of flocks are scripturally called to a higher standard and are accountable, biblically, for that which they teach to those under their care. It is essential that all church leaders (pastors, elders, deacons, parachurch leaders, bible study leaders, seminary teachers, worship leaders, etc) exercise due diligence in mature discernment of the spiritual/intellectual influences they digest and then regurgitate to others.
So in this piece, I want to spotlight several theological figures I’ve come in contact with online this past week (or past month). Perhaps, I can do a series here of awareness-raising, as other figures are brought to my attention in various ways. It takes a lot to put these critiques together, so the idea for a “Do Your Homework” series may or may not progress as I might hope; honestly, I take in so much of this stuff daily/weekly I could write continually about what I’m hearing and witnessing at play in our nation and churches. But, alas, I cannot devote myself to this pursuit time-wise.
__________
My first highlight here as one may see in my title is of David Fitch. Below is one informational image that can be found if his name is searched, and you can read more of his thoughts on such social media as Twitter. He is a seminary professor, so I am curious about his leanings and the obvious influence/(ideological) power over others he has taught/is teaching.
While the secular WOKE draw upon Foucault (my spotlight on him will come next) and others, I find it curious that religious leaders such as David Fitch (and others) are also drinking at the well of Foucault.
The Christian-associated that are pushing a form of WOKE ideology are a bit more covert, yet some such as Fitch have the boldness to write a book (essentially on the redistribution of Church and political “power”) and to quote fourteen times from Michel Foucault.
Why would a Christian writer dare to draw upon quotations/ideology from a Marxist-leaning philosopher who is known as the “father of queer theory”? I will speak more in overview of Foucault as I continue below. As I understand it from Lindsay’s talk, current terms such as “minor attracted people” can be traced to and derived from the ideologic/moral/philosophical writings, thoughts and even purported practices of Foucault.
The answer to my question in the above paragraph may be as simple as he doesn’t think his listeners will do their homework on Foucault.
While we who follow Jesus and His words, as well as the teachings of the biblical authors/apostles who handed down the Christian faith that bears witness to Jesus Christ (in a manner/model that also teaches us to be on guard against immorality, destructive heresies and doctrines of demons) need to exercise compassion with grace and truth to those in our personal sphere who struggle with various sexual identity difficulties, for the purposes of critique of professing biblical teachers in the Church, we must also note that Foucault was not only Marxist but was a practicing homosexual. Below, there will be other information about his connection to pedophilia and sado-masochism. (I did not read any of these links in detail nor do I want to–but let the one who may be unconvinced of why it is wrong for a Christian influencer such as Fitch to share quotes by Foucault do their own homework and substantiate these things.
I will provide Google search images for the purpose of emphasizing the need for Christians to do their homework and to at least know what Foucault taught and practiced before they decide that whatever end they believe Fitch has in his book, Reckoning With Power, that somehow the “means” of aligning with Foucault in order to persuade/teach his readers some “concept” is morally acceptable.
It is neither biblical, nor is it morally acceptable.
No Christian pastor or seminary ideologue (of which Fitch is both) should be drawing upon and quoting people such as Foucault as though it has any bearing on following Jesus or discerning biblical mission (“telos” is the word Fitch and others in his similar ring of influence keep emphasizing).
For more on David Fitch and his recent book, see this piece BOOK REVIEW: “RECKONING WITH POWER” BY DAVID FITCH. After I put that review together, I later saw he had a YouTube interview surrounding his new book and his views on “power.” I find that watching how a person in leadership speaks in real time–their posture as it comes across in vocal tone and facial expressions–to be very valuable in aiding discernment.
I first listened to Fitch’s new book on Audible, and it was not read by himself but by a hired reader. I later got the Kindle version so I could locate specific written references through the search feature.
And now, some images of the top search results for the terms I put into Google, to give a sense of whom David Fitch, pastor and Christian seminary professor, appears to have respectful leanings toward:
In Lindsay’s talk Authenticity and the Woke Crisis of the Real (linked and recommended above at the beginning of this piece), I jotted a few notes during a part where he referred several times to “Derrida.” I did my homework and Googled the phonetic spelling of this name and immediately came up with Jacques Derrida whom I learned is considered the “father of deconstructionism.”
Lindsay describes Derrida’s “infinite deferral of meaning” in a way I found intriguing, since it names and resonates with a number of observations over the years of “conversational” deconstructionist maneuvers.
The first I ever came in contact with this methodology was in 2005 when a recent college graduate and I were in a discussion about a variety of things and I learned the phrase, “What does that even mean?” I actually adopted the phrase after that at times where it seemed to fit into dialogue, but only recently am I understanding its deconstructionist origin (with the implications that holds). It’s tough because sometimes it is appropriate to “dissect and analyze–possibly even deconstruct a thing” for some legitimate reason. Though now, I see where it all leads.
As for Lindsay’s comment about an infinite deferral of meaning (Jacques Derrida focused on language, the structure of language and how the structure of language conveys power and that words don’t mean anything or refer to anything real). I know that I have listened to and read various people (especially in the Church) that seem to be utilizing this technique of deferral of meaning (or the particulars) in their various biblical discourses–whether they are intending or by discipleship–they all speak in a somewhat similar manner.
I find this problematic because Communism Marries Truth to a Lie, and it can be hard to get to the unbiblical/a-biblical lies (the particulars) of teachings and discourses (“Conversations” is likely the term these proselytizing rings within the Church would say they are having among themselves, while they engage others in the deconstruction of sound biblical faith in Jesus).
Derrida believed that words exist in webs of meaning–words just refer to other words without any solid meaning. So many college students from the past twenty years (at least) have been trained/indoctrinated in this manner of conversational discourse. It is fairly easy for me to recognize a “WOKE” person by the way they hold a conversation with me–or to identify underlying WOKE/Marxist ideology in the Church (sermons, music, teachings, movements, etc.) through the linguistics employed.
About 20 minutes in, as Lindsay is commenting on Derrida, he makes a shift to talking about the implications of Derrida’s language concepts as they impact scripture-based religions and the discerning the meaning of scripture. I always appreciate Lindsay’s observations/insights/perspectives on how Marxist/deconstructionist ideology impacts true Christianity, given that he himself is an atheist. I’ve never yet heard him denigrate Christians or the faith, in fact, he makes keen observations (again as one outside of the Christian faith) and warnings against such infiltrations superimposed upon Christianity.
“Jacques Derrida (1930–2004) was the founder of “deconstruction,” a way of criticizing not only both literary and philosophical texts but also political institutions. Although Derrida at times expressed regret concerning the fate of the word “deconstruction,” its popularity indicates the wide-ranging influence of his thought, in philosophy, in literary criticism and theory, in art and, in particular, architectural theory, and in political theory.”
– Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
I now move on to the false teachings of Richard Rohr after seeing a quotation of his shared this past week and refreshing my memory on why this Church influencer’s writings and beliefs are heretical. In conversation, it was mentioned that he didn’t hold to penal substitutionary atonement, but that didn’t make him a heretic. But when I think of Richard Rohr, my first basis of considering him heretical is in his pantheistic, gnostic understandings and especially, his aberrant understandings of the identity/divinity of Jesus. While he may in fact reject PSA, that would only logically follow from his offbase theological starting points. This article gives a good initial look at why Rohr, who is highly influential in progressive, social justice gospel circles, is not someone that circumspect Christian leaders should be referencing. A broken clock is correct twice a day, and if Rohr expresses a few theologically-sound thoughts, I am sure those same thoughts might be conveyed through similar quotations of others not considered heretical.
Moving on with doing our homework, the other night a recent Brian Zahnd sermon popped up in my YouTube feed and I decided to listen (he’s on my radar now, too) to get additional sense of his theological leanings. I like listening and building my discernment skills, and I worked in the kitchen with my hands during the entire message. Zahnd has written on the subject of the penal substitutionary theory of atonement, and while I really liked the creative title of his Lenten series “The Wood Between the Worlds” and he initially had some thought-provoking things to say, as he went on he revealed his atonement leanings (preferences that is…and I “think” he rejects PSA).
In the sermon he seems to be putting forth the recapitulation theory of atonement, and he also leads his listeners toward a kind of “utopian” view of God’s mission/accomplishment in the crucifixion, and makes a number of statements that lend themselves to depicting Jesus as more of a political revolutionary figure of sorts, again, with emphasis on how earth now is (or can become, through the crucifixion of Jesus), which to my ears seemed to draw upon emphasis on a couple of other theories of atonement and omitting/minimizing the PSA. I think there is basis for all these theories of atonement to some degree, biblically, in that they all work together. But the penal substitutionary theory of atonement which most evangelicals hold as of primary importance, is currently under such attack by progressives/social-justice gospel preachers in the Church for a number of likely reasons of political agenda.
I think this sermon could stand for a lot of deeper analysis, but I will leave the reader to do their homework by listening with biblical discernment.
Thank You For Reading
Please Feel Free To Express Your Thoughts Below
Abby
May 10, 2024You are right – that Fitch guy is a piece of work.
Good on you for comparing with scripture.
eileenslifer
May 10, 2024Thank you for your confirming comment. How did you find this blog piece? I am curious what search terms brought it up!
Abby
May 31, 2024Hi Eileen,
Right.
I do have a question for you… I’m just curious what prompted you to read this book in the first place?
Oh – and – after I thought it a bit, I THINK the query I made that brought me to your long review was your name and fitch. Your name just brought up your home page but if I added his name then I saw a search result that looked like the long review so I clicked on that. Then somehow I read this one. (I think it came up as a search result, too, for that query.)
eileenslifer
May 31, 2024Hi Abby,
I am really glad you found both pieces that way! (I made the short review on Amazon because it didn’t feel right to “hijack” an Amazon review with such detailed information…I am not good at being succinct but I really aimed for that there, just hoping someone would want to search for my “long review” as I indicated.)
So…the short answer why I read the book is that it came highly recommended, as do a number of ideas being promoted online by someone who studied under Fitch. The more personal things that now drive my interest in “All Things WOKE” infiltrating the Church (capital C – Church universal) are very involved. If you would like to chat in private more please feel free to email me at eileenslifer@lettersource.com
But chatting here is fine, too. Have you read the book? And what lead you to read the book?
I listen to most things on Audible when they are available. I listened through the book once while traveling and then decided to get it on Kindle so I could more easily search the “words” used. I have a fascination these days with the linguistics/language that helps spot WOKE Marxism. My ear heard terms I’ve long been on guard with (I have a story, too…I was on the “Christian WOKE train” for a number of years mainly through Rob Bell and the likes until God opened my eyes to what it really was. It wasn’t what I thought I was advocating for. Many today who sincerely want to love God and their neighbor – and more – may mistake this gobbledygook for some kind of continuation of needed Civil Rights issues. It is NOT.)
As I began searching terms like “make space for” or “create space” and other words from my notes I decided to do word count/summary analysis. That was kinda fun…being an artist I could integrate screen shots from my Kindle showing the “search term” and the number of results and integrate it into the longer review.
But what I found most disturbing was Fitch’s references to Michel Foucault. Actually, it caught my attention because around the very same time I had heard a talk by James Lindsey at Genspect. He said, “It’s never about the issue, it’s always about THE REVOLUTION.” I began to listen to Lindsey’s in-depth talks on Marxism. This might have been around February-ish. Before then, I was focused a lot on gender ideology/queer theory entering some churches in so many ways. I don’t think I could have explained Marxism too well at that point.
Before long I’m learning about Hegel and MICHEL FOUCAULT and Derrida and so many others. Dr. Jordan Cooper also has some great talks on Marxist thinkers. On top of my other issues with Fitch’s teachings/agenda – his willingness to associate in any way (once I knew more about Foucault…who also wrote a lot about “power”) was deeply disturbing. For a professing Christian to lean into quoting a few times from Foucault in a book about “power” says quite a lot.
Did you catch the part where Fitch feels like calling the Holy Spirit “she” as some kind of bridge of thought concerning the gender of God?? (I’m paraphrasing)
I have listened twice now to a recent interview with Fitch by Preston Sprinkle. There is just “so much” in that one to comment on…it may be weeks before I can sit with my laptop and listen a third time and pause and make comments on specifics.
“Do Your Homework” seemed like a good title for this series. Many Christians these days barely know scripture, let alone anything about the nature of Marxism. When James Lindsey stated that Marxism was a “theology” not an economic theory it helped me understand much more of what I’ve been witnessing creep into the Church. (Lindsey is an atheist, but has a good relationship with Christians…”the enemy of your enemy is your FRIEND!” I like James Lindsey…he speaks quite long, but it is really really good. He’s one of the top experts on Marxism and neo-Marxism/Maoism and the state of things in our country and world as it relates to that.
Shalom,
Eileen
Abby
June 2, 2024Hi Eileen,
No – in total transparency I have NOT read this book. I HAVE read a lot of his other works, Facebook posts, Substack posts, other web writing, etc. I’ve also listened to plenty of (too many) interviews he’s done.
Nothing really directed me toward the book except for his incessant “Buy my book!” posts on social media, so I took a look at the book and saw your (short) review.
The reason I was looking at him at all was because some friends of mine were very concerned that one of their kids was mixed up somehow with this guy and they asked me to look at him and see if I thought their worries were overblown. Personally, I think they have cause for concern.
He is a professor at Northern Seminary and I have to say that the fact they have him there has lowered my opinion of Northern immensely. But – then I looked at some of the other faculty there and I see there are plenty of others who are pretty questionable, too (and some who look really good!). I do think university / seminary is a good place to look at different ideas, learn why you believe what you believe, etc. but it is pretty clear that this guy is not about looking at different ideas, comparing them, etc. Looking at the way he speaks and things his students say, it is clear that his way is the only way (in his own mind), and I do think there is a set of students who are buying into this. Any other thoughts or ideas are clearly not welcome. Worrisome that these students are the ministers and faculty of tomorrow. I REALLY hope the Holy Spirit shows them the Truth and that they seek the Truth.
On a separate note I had noticed the incessant repetition of certain words and phrases, so I found your word and phrase analyses to be quite noteworthy.
eileenslifer
June 2, 2024Hi Abby,
This is all intriguing – the pattern of it all. I fully agree with your observation/concern that people like “Fitch” (Preston Sprinkle in a recent interview said that was a “rock star” name he likes to go by…the cavalier tone of discourses Fitch participates in or initiates is a whole other layer in this sad sad “onion”) are training future ministers/faculty for infiltrating God’s Church with WOKE destabilization. I just saw today one of Fitch’s recent “shorts” in my YouTube feed called “Is the Church Broken?”
I agree with you in hope that the Holy Spirit shows all who have been/are being deceived/indoctrinated what is Truth and of the Truth!
I recently learned of another local church community in my general area that is under the spell of increasing “WOKEISM.” They too have connections to Brethren in Christ/Anabaptist leanings. I’m not full understanding Anabaptist theology and I find it curious that Fitch so heavily steers people toward that as some kind of basis for his unbiblical argumentation/positions. In his talk with Sprinkle that I’ve yet to fully write about/analyze he states something like “Anabaptism is the only salvation/hope for the Church.” Those not his exact words…
So the other church has recently aligned with something called “The Jesus Collective.” Fitch mentions his association with this in his talk with Preston Sprinkle, and when I went on the site of “The Jesus Collective” there were talks by Fitch. How in the world does some heretical seminary professor like Fitch who is in Illinois get his ideology on board with a small church on the east coast?
In my mind, I am paying particular concern/observations about the “medium” on which these destructive heresies now travel: these online networks (ex. “GLOO” or “The Jesus Collective” and a plethora of others). One of my concerns is that it is a tool shifting God’s Church to a globalized network and slowly eroding the local (and especially the physical presence of centralized churches with brick and mortar presence) churches and replacing them with these small groups of Christians meeting in “public restaurants or homes which are easily subject to not being accountable to the biblical model for local elders and deacons to guard against false teachings and protect flocks.
Fitch heavily promotes these types of alternative “churches” – it is not only potentially cult-like (you reference his mentality of dishonest dialogue…not a true comparison of things with genuine discussion but he is modeling the same weaponized linguistics/tactics that the secular “WOKE” use to shut down dialogue and critical thinking. This involves tacit shaming, sanctioning language, twisting of motives and facts, and a plethora of strawman arguments and other arguments of “fallacy.”
My concern in all this also connects to aims of organizations such as the WEF who want/plan to migrate the whole world to “15 minute cities” for example. This “sneaky” wrecking ball of the churches with private property ownership (a safeguard against potential communist aims) is a real thing in my mind. Many cannot see nor connect clearly what I think I’m seeing. Do you have any thoughts on this? Do you know anything of “The Jesus Collective?” Is the young person you mentioned that parents hold concern for being drawn in through some “underground network” of alternative churches/alternative gospels/alternative “Jesus?”
I hope I’m making sense. I will restate all this one other way: A gradual shift to “online church” governance may pave the way for future GOVERNMENTAL control (there are already censorship by various entities of what can and cannot be said online…from sanctions against so-called “hate speech” to increasing “civil rights/DEI” mandates) over “what gospel” can be preached. This is exactly what happened in communist Russia. There were actually KGB agents who were planted within the Russian churches who were political tools for neutering the Christian practices/teachings and paving the way for communist takeover.
Who is this “Fitch” guy anyway? In his talk with Sprinkle he stated he had to be “saved” all over again in the 80’s and apparently, he had some degree or participation in the business world (you would have to listen for the details) early in life rather than a lifelong call to be in ministry??? And NOW, he is in a position of such INFLUENCE over those being trained at an early age to answer God’s call into lifelong pastoral ministry and teaching???
Wow…just wow.
Thank you for the dialogue. This is important stuff and in my view if just ONE false teacher can be exposed and taken down in this spiritual WAR, it may be a domino-like effect of saving his “hearers.”
II Timothy 2:14-19
“Dealing With False Teachers
14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
Shalom,
Eileen
eileenslifer
June 2, 2024Abby – one other thought. I don’t know your church connections you might have, but if you or others you may know are ever interested in writing any type of opinion piece or account of personal experiences relating to either Fitch and his teachings or in this realm of observations about WOKE Marxism infiltrating a local church (accounts of how it happens, or teachings/teachers online that had influence) I do have a “Guest Writings” section on my blog. You or others would need to contact privately with the writing/essay/review, etc and we could go from there!
(Oh…and I also forgot to mention/take note of your reference Fitch kept making for people to “buy his book!” Seems many of these people seek to also profit from these false teachings? I wonder if some want an online source of side income in view of wanting to dismantle traditional brick and mortar churches and even paid pastoral positions under the guise of this ideology…but who knows…just speculation.)
Abby
June 6, 2024Hi Eileen,
I haven’t really been able to read over your whole note thoroughly (sorry), but I will try to look at some of the things you point out. I was familiar (from a distance) with the Jesus Collective (and I see Fitch’s picture in the montage on their homepage), but not with the other groups you mentioned. I will need to look at them. I do know some of the people names, but not all that you mentioned, too.
One thing I will react to is that I, personally, am less bothered than I think(?) you are over the lack of a specific brick and mortar building. I think there are some wonderful churches that meet in different places / different scenarios that are doing tremendous things. I am TOTALLY in agreement with you on the seeming lack of accountability on folks like this guy, yet they fully use (abuse) the credibility that they get from an institution like a seminary and a title.
That’s all I can do right now.
I will try to look at some of the organizations and entities that you mentioned that I am not familiar with.
eileenslifer
June 10, 2024Hi Abby,
Sorry for my delay; I’ve been out of town. No worries at all that you couldn’t read over all I wrote, I understand! If some part helps that is great and if later you read more/research more and have additional thoughts I would welcome them.
To clarify, I think “house churches” or churches that meet in unconventional settings aren’t bad per se. I’ve often participated in home groups that were part of a “brick and mortar” church and I’ve been aware of the house church movement (no brick and mortar) for awhile. My current concern relates to people like Fitch pressing their followers toward this because I do believe Fitch (whether he knows it or not) is promoting forms of Marxist agenda. That, coupled with other global pushes (the 15-minute city and agendas of the WEF) raises concerns in my mind. “What if” scenarios…it’s kind of hard to articulate but I think of OT metaphors of some being on the “watchtower” so-to-speak for potential danger. I could very well be over-reading/over-thinking some things.
Shalom! (Peace)
Eileen
Abby
June 21, 2024Hi Eileen,
I don’t think you are over-reading or over thinking it at all.
I think you are pretty much on the mark.
Based on all my reading I think he is blatantly Marxist and he believes he is. I also believe that he would try to deny it if someone said something about it and he thought it was to his benefit to not be considered a Marxist. But – it is pretty darn clear that he is a Marxist and proud of it.
I did see more than one place where he responded to people who accused him of being a Marxist. So – you are not the only one who thinks that.
I’ve looked at plenty more and I find it all pretty vile.
Not sure what the right response is, but I do think you are right that it needs to be noted and exposed for what it is.
My bigger concern than him and what he is doing is that so many people (especially seminary students) just seem to take it all in without even thinking about it.
My guess is that if most of the THOUGHT about it AT ALL that they would say that it was nothing they wanted any part of. I could be very wrong on that. If they knew their Scripture they would.
I would think first and foremost of a Bible education / Seminary education that reading one’s Bible would be a very high priority. It seems not? (I am guessing he would say that Bible education and Seminary education shouldn’t be thought of in the same breath like I did here.)
eileenslifer
June 22, 2024Hi Abby,
Thank you for your response, as always. Your last comment is interesting – that you are guessing he would say that Bible education Seminary education shouldn’t be thought of in the same breath. I’m actually working on a blog piece that involves, essentially, deconstruction through refusal to link legitimately related things. I think of the “divide and conquer” tactic or how lawyers manipulate the “whole truth” by attempts to isolate various elements and lay burden of proof upon each separate thing, rather than the sum total of evidence. (I suppose the extent lawyers do this varies depending on who they represent and how they can put the best spin on things for their client).
I’m curious if you have any particular links to share where he clearly “believes” he is Marxist and is proud of it. Maybe the place where he responded to people accusing him of being a Marxist. It’s all so slippery in terms of identifying these people’s covert beliefs and agendas. The “creature” does rear its vile ugly head for those who are paying attention, and then it seems to continue its crafty game of hide and seek!
I agree that if some, if not most, people who were able to recognize it for what it is would have no part in it. We can view Marxism from an intellectual/philosophical position, but always, there are the layers of demonic deception/deceiving spirits…as scripture warns us. Marxism (and all the thinkers that term might include) are “theologians” in a very real sense, and there is a strong element of Gnosticism.
“”Gnosticism” itself is derived from the Greek gnosis, meaning knowledge. At the core of all versions of Gnosticism is the idea that only through attaining secret knowledge can people find their salvation and overcome the material world.”
Gordon Hackman
November 19, 2024…the short answer why I read the book is that it came highly recommended, as do a number of ideas being promoted online by someone who studied under Fitch.
Hi Eileen. Are you willing to share the name of the person who studied under Fitch who was promoting the book? I ask because I know Fitch personally and I also worked at Northern Seminary, although I am no longer there. I left Fitch’s church circles 2.5 years ago and have pretty much rejected his theological outlook. I don’t wish to bash him here as he was in many ways a good friend to me, but I am curious if I might know the former student of his from my time at Northern. As I work through everything I experienced during the two decades I was part of Fitch’s circles, it’s helpful to see the outlook of those who have been influenced by him.
eileenslifer
November 19, 2024Hi Gordon, thank you for your message, I appreciate it. I do not wish to name the person here publicly, as their scope of influence/position is not so public as Fitch (meaning, they aren’t routinely making YouTube videos, being interviewed in numerous podcasts, putting out books nor in a position of higher education/public teaching at a Christian college). I will send you an email, however, and maybe we can arrange a phone conversation at some point.
In Christ,
Eileen
Abby
July 11, 2024Did my links not make it through?
Maybe they filter them?
eileenslifer
July 12, 2024Hey Abby!
I did see your post with links and thought I “approved” it by now it seems gone…not sure what happened. I do still have them from my email notification however so I will paste back in here what you wrote. I recently had to get a paid version of a spam blocker (another $30 ugh) because in the last several weeks for some reason I started getting about 50+ spam comments per day, it was flooding my email and I was deleting them manually. The WordPress plug-in works amazingly well…I now have 704 comments that went straight into my spam.
It’s a sad world we live in that people/spammers/hackers have nothing better to do than to put vulgar comments onto random websites and cause strangers time and money!
ANYWAY…I don’t get many “real comments” here and I appreciate your checking in and comments. Very helpful…and I did a couple recent pieces on some other people whose teachings/methods I found problematic and grouped Fitch in, too…with the new angle on these problems. Today I was listening to Dr. Jordan Cooper in a talk on heresies during the Reformation period and he had a segment on Anabaptists that was interesting. I may get around to researching that more. Fitch and some in his similar realm say they draw upon Anabaptist theology. Which isn’t bad per se, but apparently there were some Anabaptists that fell into Trinitarian heresies, that followed a teacher who renamed himself as Adam Pastor. It’s all interesting.
Until we talk again!
Blessings,
Eileen
eileenslifer
July 12, 2024And here is the re-paste from my email back in June:
ABBY
JUNE 22, 2024
Just real quick –
I don’t have a Twitter / X account, but I see things like this occasionally:
https://x.com/fitchest/status/1327331834871549954
And things like this:
(I don’t think this is Fitch’s words, but he reposted someone else’s and it (at least to me) signified some kind of endorsement…)
https://www.facebook.com/fitchest/posts/10155793328363277
etc.
Some guy named James (rightfully) posted this on a review of one of his books at:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36899312-seven-practices-for-the-church-on-mission
“wokeness parasitic on the Gospel
Not worth the time or money. His theology is contaminated with Marxist identity politics that will lead you away from the Gospel.”
Etc.
These examples aren’t a lot, but they are just a few that show that he is in that space, at least flirting with it, and others see him as in that space.
eileenslifer
July 12, 2024Your term that he is “flirting” with offbase things like Marxism is a good word. I see this in a number of “these people.” They flirt with quoting from other theologians/books written by heretical people. Do you know what the “motte and bailey” fallacy is? It’s when someone wants to advance certain “ground” (that is the bailey) and when they are challenged on it they retreat to the “castle” or “motte” which is the more defensible position.
“These people” (as I now name them) seem to like to do this maneuver. I’m going to link you here to an explanation of the “motte and bailey” tactic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YOrmvyfRdE&t=20s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrpn5ez3i7U&t=1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hSKa5eVCiM
I find this interesting–I know it when I hear it but it can be hard to catch them quickly and articulate/call out this motte-and-bailey move.
Abby
July 14, 2024Right!
I didn’t know that term before right now, but I have seen that many times. (I only watched your first and third link… will try to look at the other one when more time available.)
Another thing I see quite a bit, and it seems really similar, but kind of different, is that he (and others like him) will say something pretty outrageous, but that he thinks his “followers” will all praise, but he will also add an ambiguity into it so that if instead of cheering him on about if they call him out about it, then he will backpedal and say “No no no no no – you misunderstood what I was meaning… ” and then say that what he was MEANING to say was the other way to interpret the ambiguity. So – rather than a tool specifically to deceive, he has given himself a safety hatch to get out if he went farther than the followers were willing to accept yet. But his intent was to assert the radical thing. Not sure I am explaining that well. Know what I mean?
By the way, the guy in your first link did a great job explaining the Motte and Bailey thing.
BTW – sorry about the spam you get… I’m sure those are all just automated bots, yes? I don’t know what they gain by doing that, but I’m sure they must get SOME sort of payoff (money, cheap thrills, whatever) from doing it, or they probably wouldn’t. Or – maybe they think that SOMEDAY they will be able to monetize doing that. Or – maybe it is the places that sell the (paid) services to stop it, so that you pay them to not do it anymore. Who knows?
eileenslifer
July 14, 2024Hi Abby,
Glad you found the first link helpful, and hopefully the others will be, too.
I think you did a good job of explaining the tactics of Fitch and others like him…it’s a variation on the “Motte and Bailey” I suppose…kind of like “covering all your bases?” It’s like in chess…on some level they know in advance what “objections” will be so they make their “move” in an ambiguous way that gives them some “out” if they are called on it.
Isn’t it terrible that we must take time trying to articulate and raise awareness of such tactics?
Yes, a “safety hatch” but the intent is to assert the radical thing.
Thanks for the “SPAM” sympathies! Yes they are all automated bots and yes, there must be some incentive for them to do this. The SPAM comments can literally be hundreds of seemingly random (and vulgar) words/phrases/links etc. Many of these might have stuff embedded in it that the so-called creator of such nonsense reaps some benefit, though I am hard-pressed to imagine what! I’m just happy that by upgrading me free “spam blocker” to a $30 version it put a quick end to it. But, then it also censors out people like you who may try to put legitimate links for discussion. Maybe next time substitute the word “dot” for example or dashes so it doesn’t read it as a link, but I can decipher it.
Abby
August 1, 2024Hi Eileen,
Just to let you know, a couple days ago I left a comment on your “Great Reset” article, but so far it hasn’t shown up. Not sure if it might be your new filter?
Anyway, wanted to let you know that. We’ll see if this one shows up here.
-Abby
eileenslifer
August 2, 2024Hi Abby,
Thanks for alerting me! Yes, I did find your comment in the spam filter, not sure why it did that since you’ve commented before and it was not spam. I marked it “not spam” and approved it, so hopefully the new filter will learn that algorithm. All technology is difficult to trust…I mean, there are 1322 comments now in spam and I want to trust that most are truly spam…and then…suddenly one is NOT! Ha.
Hope you have a great weekend.
Eileen
Abby
September 30, 2024Hi Eileen,
Just to let you know I’ve not been ignoring you.
I’ve been meaning to make some more comments, so have been looking around more at this Fitch guy. But – my mother always taught me that if I can’t find anything nice to say to not say anything at all. So I’ve been trying to uphold that. So – I’m still looking for something I can say.
eileenslifer
September 30, 2024Hi Abby, it’s great to hear from you. I’m following your comment quite well. That’s often what we are trained to do…just be “nice.” But, none of this stuff has “nice” fruit, and raising awareness is needed. Maybe that doesn’t sound nice…but…define “nice.” Have you read Megan Bashan’s book “Shepherds For Sale?” It’s really eye-opening. This interview gives a pretty good overview of the various content.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UVlX8RmDx4
I’ve actually been really stressed with a bunch of things lately and unable to keep working on some of my blog pieces I am in the midst of/want to do. Writing and raising awareness–assembling things for others–is something I feel called to. But it is so time consuming. I actually sense I’ve been under some type of spiritual attack lately, things that have essentially “shut down” my voice and writing time. Stuff that is requiring so much of me I can’t seem to get back to the blog.
Ironically, I took time to write a (personal) piece tonight…and then, I see you have visited. Thank you.
I haven’t browsed Fitch’s activities lately, but maybe I soon will. There are others in that vein who have my writing attention as well. It’s just SO MUCH. Right?
I hope you have a great week.
Abby
October 12, 2024Hi Eileen,
Sorry to hear about your recent stressors.
Thank you for pointing out that video. I looked at that one and some others of his. I’m glad to have this name on my radar.
You have a blessed week.
Abby
eileenslifer
October 18, 2024Thank you Abby, I appreciate you checking in! I hope to get back to writing/completing more pieces in my “Do Your Homework” vein, but for now it seems to be on hold. Have a blessed week/weekend, too.
Eileen
Abby
December 3, 2024Happy Thanksgiving! (a little late…)
eileenslifer
December 5, 2024Thank you Abbie, I appreciate that and hope you had a good Thanksgiving, too!